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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole

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I'm your host Mick West my guest today

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is Anthony McNabb Oscar Anthony is a

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promoter and practitioner of Street

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epistemology he is the executive

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director of Street epistemology

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International and his YouTube channel

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extensively documented interactions with

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hundreds of people where he asked them

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about their beliefs and helps them

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discover new ways of thinking about

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those beliefs via Street epistemology so

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Anthony welcome to tales from the rabbit

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hole thank you so much for having me I'm

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Mick yeah it's great great to have you

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on so yeah the site Street epistemology

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calm I've been reading reading through

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that that's it's a great resource

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there's lots of really useful

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information on there and it's coming

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along it's coming along it's a work in

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progress it's it's a yeah I think it's

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very good it's got some very nice like

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kind of short short explanations of what

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Street epistemology is and some longer

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ones and some more detailed things and

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on the first page of the resources

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section it's got this what is Street

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epistemology and it gives these four

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different shorter definitions there when

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people that knew what Street

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epistemology is what's the light they're

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the quick elevator pitch for Street

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epistemology I like to describe it as a

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dialogue where you use questions to

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explore somebody's claim to see how they

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concluded that it's true and that is my

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very quick you know first floor to the

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second floor elevator pitch but if we

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were going to the hundredth floor I

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might explain that it originated in the

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atheist community geared for atheists to

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engage with theists on their deeply held

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beliefs but we quickly realized that it

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could be used for all sorts of different

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claims including the claims that

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atheists make so it's it's a tool that

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can be used by pretty much anybody when

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you want to figure out how they how they

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determined that they can be so sure that

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it's true and it's a respectful

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engagement where you are giving people

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plenty of time to explain their position

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and their reasons and their method for

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verifying those reasons and it tends to

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end on a on a friendly note where a

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person is sometimes left with a pebble

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in their shoe so that they can go on

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their own and figure out

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do I really have good reasons for

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thinking that this is true sometimes

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people back off with our confidence

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sometimes they stay the same sometimes

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they increase their confidence sometimes

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they even completely abandon their view

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so it's a it's a dialectical technique

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that's I think it originated from the

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Socratic method the professor that came

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up with it is a philosophy professor and

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we've been taking it since he wrote that

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book in 2012 and I think we've really

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developed it into something quite

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powerful and I'm really excited to be on

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your show to talk to you more about it

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and see how we might be able to use it

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in different different venues things

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that maybe you're interested in using it

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for yeah now I'm really interested

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because I talk to a lot of people who

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are conspiracy theorists my background

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like doing this type of thing is all

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about conspiracy theories I started out

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doing the chemtrails conspiracy theory

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where people believe that the planes in

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the sky are spraying some kind of

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weather altering toxins and I talk to

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people who believe in 9/11 was an inside

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job and I've heard about Street

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epistemology before but I always kind of

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just thought it was you know primarily

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to do with atheism and I can see how you

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got the impression honestly because it

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started in the Atheist community the

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book that was written by Boghossian is

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called a manual for creating a theatre I

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completely understand how you how you

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and others have that impression yeah

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Peter Bogosian he you know he wrote this

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this book and the first chapter is

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called Street epistemology and it

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basically lays out the the various

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techniques that you use for that and I

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recently read his his second book and

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blues his second book which is how to

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have impossible conversations right

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which can right build upon this but I

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think it's perhaps steering a little bit

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away from the atheism type of thing and

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instead of yes definitely yeah yeah I

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would definitely say so

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yeah and he's you know trying to I guess

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extend this this methodology into things

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like like politics yeah especially

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politics politics social justice yeah

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political claims and it's it's neat that

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the author that originated Street

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epistemology has recognized the the the

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diversity of

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suppose the the flexibility of the tool

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that it can be used in those in those

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domains yeah and I actually used the

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term epistemology in in my book escaping

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the rabbit hole because it's used within

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the academic community for talking about

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conspiracy theories and they they use

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the term crippled epistemology which is

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something that Cass Sunstein popularized

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this term and he defines it as being a

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beliefs based on a very limited number

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of information sources so if for example

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somebody only watched say Alex Jones all

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the time then they they have a belief

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system that's based around you know what

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Alex Jones tells them and they don't

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have this broader perspective and does

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that concept of a crippled epistemology

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is that is that the same type of thing

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that you're talking about in Street

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epistemology well I've never heard the

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term before and based on your

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description I would say what you're

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describing is bias and we definitely see

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bias when we're engaging with people

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I've recently uploaded a couple of

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conversations with missionaries from the

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LDS Church they happen to be strolling

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by and we talked to them I talked to

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them and one of the concepts that came

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up was are you are you looking at things

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through a filtered lens are you biased

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perhaps are you favoring this view that

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you think is true because you want the

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belief to be true and so that's

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definitely a factor when we engage with

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people and something that we notice and

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it's even something that we talk about

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but we don't accuse somebody of it we

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don't say hi that's you just you only

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have one source for all your information

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and you know you're you're a fox news

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junkie or something like that that

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likely won't be effective in helping the

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person take another look at their views

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and how they concluded that it's true

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and one thing that we might say is well

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how do you how do you find the

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information that is leading you to your

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conclusions have you considered other

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sources let's say that you discovered

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another source how would you go about

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vetting that to see if that would be

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something that you'd want to add to your

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mix or maybe get rid of it so what we're

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finding in Street epistemology is that

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when you

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you stop talking about the actual claim

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or the conspiracy or even the quality of

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their news sources well you actually

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want to talk about the quality of their

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news sources but you don't want to be

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accusatory or dismissive because you

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don't find it compelling they find it

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compelling so it's a better use of your

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time to explore how they did how they

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determined that that's a good

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trustworthy reliable source and that

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acts that act of exploration helps the

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person take another look at their view

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through their own lens and that's the

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beauty of this approach is that you're

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using their own words their own

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definitions the sources that they're

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using to come to their conclusions so

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people like to feel listened to and

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heard and respected and that's why these

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talks usually tend to end on a very good

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note because you're not misrepresenting

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your conversation partner and that's

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extremely valuable when you're talking

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to somebody who might be deeply

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entrenched in an interview that we might

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personally find horrendous but if you're

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interested in helping them take another

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look at their views if you have empathy

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for their position or at least for them

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as a human being might be a better way

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of phrasing it this approach might

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really appeal to you and I hope your

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listeners look into it further because I

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think that might be quite surprised at

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how effective it really could be yeah

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well I feel like in a way like I

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wouldn't say independently rediscovered

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it but the way I evolved personally to

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talking to people in conspiracy theories

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did kind of eventually come to this very

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kind of gentle respectful way of talking

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to people I think when I started out

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debunking people on the internet like

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debunking conspiracy theories saying why

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they're false it's very much like

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figuring out what the error is in in

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someone's claim and then saying yeah

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this is wrong because you know a B and C

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which as you know doesn't always work

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very well you get this kind of backfire

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effect sometimes where if you tell

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people why they are wrong then they're

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just gonna double down and fight more

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yes and yes we try to we try to avoid

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telling people you're wrong you're

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stupid you are you have a misperception

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of reality

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we asked them how they determined that

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they're correct and by that simple shift

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of approach you're gonna probably have a

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lot better conversations however it is

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difficult to do it I don't know if you

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noticed that when you made that switch

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yourself if I'm actually kind of curious

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was it was it a gradual transition for

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you was it difficult I found it

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difficult when I switched from debating

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and arguing and giving people facts to

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actually listening to them and

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encouraging to them to explain how they

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got to their view yeah it was actually a

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pretty gradual process there was a few

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key moments I think one of which was I I

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saw a talk by by Phil Plait called don't

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be a dick we're seeing that yeah it it

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was something like Toki gave at a

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skeptics conference and the skeptics

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it's kind of this atheism there but it's

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also about like addressing pseudoscience

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and things like alternative medicine

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near false beliefs conspiracy theories

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things like that and he was saying that

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you've got to be respectful to people

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and that he works better yeah it's just

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simply that it works better and he

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actually got some pushback from this

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because people felt a bit upset that

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they weren't anyway allows them to

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express their their anger and

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frustration that oh gosh I could

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definitely relate to that and after

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Ralph to review that talk that he gave

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because now I'm thinking I'm wondering

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where he gave that if it was do you

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remember it was it QED conned by a

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chance I think it sounds like what

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you're describing I think he was at the

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amazing meeting which is James Randi the

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00:10:34,430 --> 00:10:31,510
old conference back in Las Vegas

276
00:10:37,139 --> 00:10:34,440
probably about 10 years ago now I think

277
00:10:40,829 --> 00:10:37,149
it doesn't surprise me that he received

278
00:10:43,199 --> 00:10:40,839
some kickback on that because a lot of

279
00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:43,209
people think that you have to use the

280
00:10:46,860 --> 00:10:45,100
heavy hammer approach and bash people

281
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:46,870
over the head to knock some sense into

282
00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:49,290
them to see things your way mm-hm and

283
00:10:53,730 --> 00:10:51,550
what we're finding especially when we

284
00:10:55,290 --> 00:10:53,740
look at psychology and people involved

285
00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:55,300
in motivational interviewing and even

286
00:10:59,189 --> 00:10:57,130
even the progress that we've made in

287
00:11:01,769 --> 00:10:59,199
Street epistemology since it came out

288
00:11:03,630 --> 00:11:01,779
and in 2012 it doesn't seem to work

289
00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:03,640
people tend to become more entrenched in

290
00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:06,310
those views and sometimes

291
00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:09,340
arguing with a person and ridiculing

292
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:12,700
them we can sometimes get a benefit from

293
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:14,650
doing that we can feel good from tearing

294
00:11:19,770 --> 00:11:16,810
somebody down right it could be even

295
00:11:22,380 --> 00:11:19,780
entertaining to be quite honest and it's

296
00:11:23,580 --> 00:11:22,390
easier it's just easier to say let me

297
00:11:25,230 --> 00:11:23,590
just send you a link that shows that

298
00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:25,240
you're wrong and I'll be done with you

299
00:11:28,650 --> 00:11:25,900
mm-hmm

300
00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:28,660
but it's probably not gonna land with

301
00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:31,720
them so that might be one of the reasons

302
00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:33,100
why you're getting some pushback I think

303
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:35,440
you know it's enjoyable and it's it's

304
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:36,880
easier than I think it so that's a

305
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:39,970
little harder to set aside your ego here

306
00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:42,610
a person out and then figure out what

307
00:11:45,570 --> 00:11:44,110
might be a good questions to

308
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:45,580
respectfully challenge them and give

309
00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:48,490
them time to think about it it's it's

310
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:50,590
counterintuitive this approach it is

311
00:11:56,820 --> 00:11:54,970
yeah and people I think people think

312
00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:56,830
that you should just be able to explain

313
00:12:00,180 --> 00:11:58,210
to someone why they are wrong because

314
00:12:02,070 --> 00:12:00,190
here from from your perspective as like

315
00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:02,080
you know a rational skeptic or whatever

316
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:04,870
you consider yourself to be you think

317
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:06,730
that you know what the actual answer is

318
00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:09,250
and all it is is a simple matter of

319
00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:11,350
explaining it to people and then when

320
00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:13,630
they don't accept your explanation it

321
00:12:17,850 --> 00:12:15,790
gets frustrating and then people get

322
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:17,860
they tend to get angry of these people

323
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:20,530
and then they yeah but that works both

324
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:22,690
ways as well I think I think both yes

325
00:12:27,450 --> 00:12:24,930
exactly I think both parties can can

326
00:12:28,950 --> 00:12:27,460
it's detrimental to both parties that

327
00:12:30,330 --> 00:12:28,960
are involved all the parties are that

328
00:12:34,260 --> 00:12:30,340
are involved in the conversation because

329
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:34,270
if I'm giving you information or

330
00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:36,250
evidence that I think well that I found

331
00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:37,750
compelling that I think you should find

332
00:12:42,930 --> 00:12:40,120
compelling but it's not the reason that

333
00:12:45,630 --> 00:12:42,940
your belief is based on we're likely

334
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:45,640
wasting our time or if I'm arguing them

335
00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:47,410
with let's say I'm talking with a

336
00:12:51,660 --> 00:12:50,470
conspiracy theorist or you know somebody

337
00:12:54,540 --> 00:12:51,670
making a claim just keep it real

338
00:12:56,670 --> 00:12:54,550
generally suppose if I don't figure out

339
00:12:58,440 --> 00:12:56,680
what their real reason is by asking them

340
00:12:59,550 --> 00:12:58,450
questions and listening to them and then

341
00:13:01,890 --> 00:12:59,560
double checking to make sure that that

342
00:13:03,510 --> 00:13:01,900
really is the reason we could very well

343
00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:03,520
be talking past each other and I see

344
00:13:08,190 --> 00:13:06,580
that time and time again in fact even

345
00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:08,200
though I've been doing this for eight

346
00:13:12,570 --> 00:13:11,110
years now or so the most recent video

347
00:13:14,010 --> 00:13:12,580
that I uploaded with two Mormon

348
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:14,020
missionaries there was a point where I

349
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,610
think we were completely talking past

350
00:13:19,230 --> 00:13:17,440
each other I think we had different

351
00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:19,240
impressions of what the word

352
00:13:22,650 --> 00:13:21,520
meant now it never occurred to me in all

353
00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:22,660
this time that there might be a

354
00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:24,700
misunderstanding of what of what a good

355
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:27,100
sufficient test is but we were just

356
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:29,050
talking past each other and it's I was

357
00:13:33,329 --> 00:13:31,930
just marveling after the fact that even

358
00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:33,339
after having spent so much time on it

359
00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:36,100
it's still quite likely that you're

360
00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:38,200
gonna be misunderstanding each other

361
00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:39,820
even even despite your best intentions

362
00:13:43,889 --> 00:13:41,620
yeah this is something I see all the

363
00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:43,899
time is that I'm talking to someone and

364
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,630
it takes a while before I even realize

365
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:48,399
that we're talking about different

366
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:52,720
things you mean this is why you don't

367
00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:54,130
understand oh this is why I don't why

368
00:13:58,050 --> 00:13:56,110
we're not understanding each other is

369
00:14:00,090 --> 00:13:58,060
they were actually using like you know

370
00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:00,100
the same word for four different

371
00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:02,320
meanings I think this is something yeah

372
00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:03,220
Peter pegasion

373
00:14:07,850 --> 00:14:05,740
talks about in is in how to have

374
00:14:10,829 --> 00:14:07,860
impossible conversations as a people

375
00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:10,839
have different opinions about even like

376
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:13,750
fairly simple words like justice or one

377
00:14:18,030 --> 00:14:16,330
truth yes and things like that and these

378
00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:18,040
are complex words that need to be

379
00:14:21,810 --> 00:14:19,390
unpacked and if we're not taking the

380
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:21,820
time to unpack these the meaning of

381
00:14:26,250 --> 00:14:23,410
these words with our conversation

382
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:26,260
partner we might get lucky and you might

383
00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:28,450
be talking about the same meaning of the

384
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:30,430
word but very likely we're not and we're

385
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:31,510
gonna be talking to past each other and

386
00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:32,890
that's just gonna result in frustration

387
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:34,870
or making you think that you just

388
00:14:37,889 --> 00:14:36,670
completely dominated them and won and

389
00:14:39,540 --> 00:14:37,899
they're just scratching their head like

390
00:14:42,269 --> 00:14:39,550
I don't even know what that dude was

391
00:14:44,430 --> 00:14:42,279
talking about yes because they things

392
00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:44,440
you're telling them they think are the

393
00:14:48,329 --> 00:14:46,660
actual the actual facts from a different

394
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,339
perspective like you know some of I

395
00:14:52,620 --> 00:14:51,040
talked to UFO people quite a lot people

396
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:52,630
who believe that that they've had a

397
00:14:57,690 --> 00:14:54,730
personal experience with UFOs or that

398
00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:57,700
there's evidence of UFOs out there in

399
00:15:01,430 --> 00:14:59,050
some ways it's kind of like a religious

400
00:15:04,199 --> 00:15:01,440
thing because they have these personal

401
00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:04,209
revelations of truth in that they see a

402
00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:07,480
UFO or they get abducted by aliens and

403
00:15:12,690 --> 00:15:10,360
you know they they have similar types of

404
00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:12,700
usages of words where they mean a

405
00:15:20,970 --> 00:15:15,640
different thing like they will say like

406
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:20,980
the word real they say UFOs are real but

407
00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:22,720
what they mean is kind of different to

408
00:15:25,889 --> 00:15:23,980
what other people mean like when there

409
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:25,899
recently there was these three videos

410
00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:29,410
that were released kind of indirectly by

411
00:15:32,430 --> 00:15:30,910
the US Navy that's supposedly showing

412
00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:32,440
UFOs and then

413
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:35,080
yeah these are these are real videos and

414
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:37,570
then the press goes and says oh the Navy

415
00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:41,710
admits UFOs are real the Navy was saying

416
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:44,230
was that the videos were real actual

417
00:15:48,260 --> 00:15:46,450
videos from the Navy of objects that

418
00:15:51,090 --> 00:15:48,270
they they didn't immediately identify

419
00:15:53,940 --> 00:15:51,100
whereas people in the UFO community who

420
00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:53,950
have this this strong desire for you

421
00:15:58,380 --> 00:15:56,080
know alien visitors to be real they

422
00:16:01,350 --> 00:15:58,390
essentially take it as meaning that the

423
00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:01,360
Navy is saying that alien spaceship are

424
00:16:05,610 --> 00:16:03,300
visiting us and we have video of them

425
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:05,620
see it's very very different this

426
00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:09,220
perspective we really do and the word

427
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:11,350
real it's very similar to the word true

428
00:16:17,550 --> 00:16:15,970
or truth that we often talk past each

429
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:17,560
other on that word to where a lot of

430
00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:19,360
people say well it's my truth it's true

431
00:16:23,580 --> 00:16:22,060
for me and what I think they tend and

432
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:23,590
you can usually uncover this by asking

433
00:16:27,770 --> 00:16:25,510
them questions or a thought experiment

434
00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:27,780
that we often do in Street epistemology

435
00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:30,190
you often realize that they're talking

436
00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:33,220
about a subjective opinion it's real to

437
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:36,400
me because I think it's the case or it's

438
00:16:39,390 --> 00:16:37,690
just I can't think of any other

439
00:16:41,790 --> 00:16:39,400
explanation and therefore it's my truth

440
00:16:44,970 --> 00:16:41,800
and they're not using they're not using

441
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:44,980
that word to mean objective fact mmm-hmm

442
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:46,450
so sometimes you even have to just set

443
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:48,850
the belief aside and have this broader

444
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:50,530
discussion about what they mean by the

445
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:53,650
word true or false and what's the

446
00:16:56,940 --> 00:16:55,450
difference between an opinion in fact is

447
00:16:59,190 --> 00:16:56,950
this view that you have more of an

448
00:17:01,800 --> 00:16:59,200
opinion there's more of a fact and when

449
00:17:04,699 --> 00:17:01,810
you start sussing it out you can really

450
00:17:08,189 --> 00:17:04,709
uncover some problematic reasons and

451
00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:08,199
foundations I suppose for people holding

452
00:17:11,370 --> 00:17:09,550
these views but it's crucial that you

453
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:11,380
uncover it because if you don't you're

454
00:17:14,790 --> 00:17:12,880
gonna be having this this upper level

455
00:17:16,890 --> 00:17:14,800
talk when there's a serious fundamental

456
00:17:18,750 --> 00:17:16,900
issues down at the bottom and in Street

457
00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:18,760
epistemology we like to ask questions to

458
00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:21,040
get to the foundation to figure out

459
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:23,110
what's really propping it all up and it

460
00:17:25,980 --> 00:17:24,640
seems like people enjoy doing it too

461
00:17:27,929 --> 00:17:25,990
that's I don't know if how many videos

462
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:27,939
you watched of mine or others who are

463
00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:29,710
doing it or observed conversations maybe

464
00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:31,350
online where people are doing this but

465
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:34,780
people tend to enjoy the process yeah

466
00:17:39,450 --> 00:17:37,120
taking another look at their views yeah

467
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:39,460
I noticed that on you you saw that you

468
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:41,290
come to somebody like at a university

469
00:17:45,419 --> 00:17:42,130
campus or something

470
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:45,429
and you say like can I do three minutes

471
00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:45,910
he's

472
00:17:50,790 --> 00:17:48,550
you do know three-minute interviews I

473
00:17:53,250 --> 00:17:50,800
started a five I just bumped it down to

474
00:17:54,510 --> 00:17:53,260
four I mean there are sometimes listen I

475
00:17:55,950 --> 00:17:54,520
just have three minutes can you do it in

476
00:17:59,070 --> 00:17:55,960
three I'm like I'll give it a shot

477
00:18:02,610 --> 00:17:59,080
but regardless of that's more of a sort

478
00:18:04,050 --> 00:18:02,620
of a novelty respecting there it's a

479
00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:04,060
starting point to say listen I respect

480
00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:05,230
your time I understand this is a little

481
00:18:08,550 --> 00:18:07,270
unusual you can bail at any time and you

482
00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:08,560
can go after it you know whatever I'm

483
00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:10,060
not holding you here mm-hmm

484
00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:11,470
but what tends to happen is when the

485
00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:13,420
timer goes off even if many times I

486
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:15,190
forget to set the timer literally forget

487
00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:18,130
it but if I do set the timer and it goes

488
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:19,390
off after a certain amount of time

489
00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:21,760
people usually just blow it off and say

490
00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:23,620
let's just keep going I'm having a good

491
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:24,070
time

492
00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:26,110
you keep asking me questions or I don't

493
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:28,270
ask you some questions back they they're

494
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:31,510
it's so funny like after a three minute

495
00:18:36,750 --> 00:18:35,110
engagement with somebody if you showed

496
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:36,760
respect and that you're listening to

497
00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:38,200
them and really trying to understand

498
00:18:41,550 --> 00:18:39,820
them they're gonna probably stick around

499
00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:41,560
for a while to explore these things with

500
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:44,440
you yeah I think a lot of people they

501
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:46,510
feel very confident in their beliefs and

502
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:49,210
I think in some ways their motivations

503
00:18:55,020 --> 00:18:52,330
for talking to you is to try to convert

504
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:55,030
you in a way and they feel like they're

505
00:19:00,510 --> 00:18:57,130
trying to explain their position to you

506
00:19:03,540 --> 00:19:00,520
some of them then some of them yeah do

507
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:03,550
they do you often see people have

508
00:19:08,250 --> 00:19:06,130
genuine doubt come up in the

509
00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:08,260
conversations or do you you is it much

510
00:19:12,780 --> 00:19:09,430
more often you just kind of you know

511
00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:12,790
planting a seed or it's very common to

512
00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:15,220
see doubt or at the very least

513
00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:18,100
questioning yeah when you when you use

514
00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:22,590
this approach it's not it's it's an odd

515
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:26,520
interview where somebody doesn't go away

516
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:28,930
thinking about well I don't know what

517
00:19:32,430 --> 00:19:29,440
they're thinking

518
00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:32,440
but they seem to be reporting and

519
00:19:35,910 --> 00:19:34,600
showing indications that they're really

520
00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:35,920
contemplating the questions that I'm

521
00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:37,990
asking them and I see that as a valuable

522
00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:39,070
thing that's extremely valuable

523
00:19:43,710 --> 00:19:41,830
especially in an age where we we talk

524
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:43,720
past each other we argue we're not

525
00:19:48,990 --> 00:19:45,970
listening we're trying to figure out how

526
00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:49,000
I can knock your knock you over

527
00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:50,950
personally possibly even not just your

528
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:52,600
belief I just want to I just want to

529
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:54,850
kick you in the fina in the teeth and

530
00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:56,650
that's a that's of what I mentioned

531
00:19:59,890 --> 00:19:58,090
before it's a real problem and that

532
00:20:02,110 --> 00:19:59,900
might be one of the reasons why

533
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:02,120
people seem to be gravitating towards

534
00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:03,710
this like people such as yourself who

535
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:06,470
have shows who who are noticing this

536
00:20:09,899 --> 00:20:08,510
word maybe coming up more video examples

537
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:09,909
that are crossing your feet or something

538
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:12,770
it's gaining momentum we've been working

539
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:14,960
at this for seven or eight years now and

540
00:20:18,899 --> 00:20:16,970
there's a vibrant community of people

541
00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:18,909
and around the world who are trying

542
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:22,400
different ways to build this and make it

543
00:20:28,510 --> 00:20:22,730
better

544
00:20:29,289 --> 00:20:28,520
and it's extremely rewarding and fun to

545
00:20:31,930 --> 00:20:29,299
be a part of it

546
00:20:35,169 --> 00:20:31,940
yeah I kind of feel the same way in in

547
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:35,179
terms of how you know things are moving

548
00:20:39,630 --> 00:20:37,010
with let's say the skeptical movement or

549
00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:39,640
the just in general in the in the media

550
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:42,020
you know people are recognizing that

551
00:20:49,930 --> 00:20:44,809
you've got to have actual conversations

552
00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:49,940
with people and I think it is it is

553
00:20:54,010 --> 00:20:52,070
something that you know I wouldn't say

554
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:54,020
like it's time has come but it's it's

555
00:20:59,110 --> 00:20:55,600
certainly something I think is it's

556
00:21:01,779 --> 00:20:59,120
increasingly common and increasingly

557
00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:01,789
important that that we have these these

558
00:21:05,230 --> 00:21:03,440
respectful conversations between people

559
00:21:07,299 --> 00:21:05,240
you know people are visualizing because

560
00:21:10,659 --> 00:21:07,309
because of the increased political

561
00:21:12,909 --> 00:21:10,669
polarization within the country the you

562
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:12,919
know it's it's it's problematic and it

563
00:21:17,289 --> 00:21:15,440
can do some bad things down down the

564
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:17,299
road and that we wanted we want to do

565
00:21:21,610 --> 00:21:19,490
something about it now and this is the

566
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,620
way to do it there are people who are

567
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:23,840
noticing the problems that we're raising

568
00:21:30,399 --> 00:21:28,250
and they they some people feel helpless

569
00:21:31,659 --> 00:21:30,409
some people feel apathetic it just is

570
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:31,669
this is just too big of a problem I

571
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:32,690
don't I just don't know what to do I'm

572
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:34,730
just gonna turn on the Kardashians and

573
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:36,770
watch it but there are people who are

574
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:38,210
concerned about it people like yourself

575
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:41,360
it seems and and myself and others sure

576
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:43,490
who you just had on your show like there

577
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:46,250
are people who want to try to improve

578
00:21:51,399 --> 00:21:49,130
the world and this seems to be a decent

579
00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:51,409
step in the right direction to try to

580
00:21:55,659 --> 00:21:54,049
make it happen yeah you know she see

581
00:21:57,700 --> 00:21:55,669
things like this coming up around

582
00:21:59,470 --> 00:21:57,710
Thanksgiving and around around Christmas

583
00:22:01,360 --> 00:21:59,480
because you you get these articles that

584
00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:01,370
people write like how to have a

585
00:22:06,580 --> 00:22:03,980
conversation with your you know your

586
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:06,590
your uncle who's a rabid conservative or

587
00:22:10,990 --> 00:22:08,690
whatever or it's a you know crazy

588
00:22:12,430 --> 00:22:11,000
liberal or oh yeah and how do you

589
00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:12,440
actually have conversations with people

590
00:22:14,830 --> 00:22:13,550
and

591
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:14,840
yeah it's kind of a good opportunity I

592
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:16,310
think around Thanksgiving to bring up

593
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:18,050
topics like this how do we actually have

594
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:20,570
these these conversations well I mean it

595
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:21,530
might be useful to have a meta

596
00:22:26,820 --> 00:22:24,110
discussion about how we might be able to

597
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:26,830
have better conversations in in those

598
00:22:31,390 --> 00:22:29,110
venues like during those holidays

599
00:22:32,740 --> 00:22:31,400
whether I actually sit down with a

600
00:22:34,750 --> 00:22:32,750
family member while there are other

601
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:34,760
people around during those holidays I

602
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:36,650
don't know if I would do it I think

603
00:22:40,540 --> 00:22:38,990
there's a time and place for it and I

604
00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:40,550
I'm not quite convinced that that's the

605
00:22:48,370 --> 00:22:45,340
right time in place unless you really

606
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:48,380
prepare the table for it so to speak

607
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:51,770
meaning yeah say I really like to

608
00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:53,240
explore this with you some more

609
00:22:56,110 --> 00:22:54,620
and I want to try a different approach

610
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:56,120
than what maybe I've been using in the

611
00:22:59,920 --> 00:22:58,250
past would you be willing to do that and

612
00:23:01,360 --> 00:22:59,930
they might ask for an example and you

613
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:01,370
can you can maybe show them a video

614
00:23:04,990 --> 00:23:02,930
example or explain to them a couple

615
00:23:08,170 --> 00:23:05,000
questions that you might ask and then

616
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:08,180
you can gingerly embark on it in that

617
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:10,400
environment I suppose but pay very close

618
00:23:14,860 --> 00:23:11,810
attention to see if they're becoming

619
00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:14,870
irate yeah or maybe too uncomfortable

620
00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:16,540
you want them a little uncomfortable but

621
00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:18,950
you don't want to push it too much where

622
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:20,420
you're you're sabotaging the whole

623
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,650
holiday for everybody

624
00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:23,600
indeed yeah you need to really need to

625
00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:25,070
pay attention to the venue that you're

626
00:23:29,140 --> 00:23:27,200
in do you usually engage with people

627
00:23:31,150 --> 00:23:29,150
face-to-face or online or what's what

628
00:23:32,650 --> 00:23:31,160
your what's your venue of choice

629
00:23:34,420 --> 00:23:32,660
oh well recently I've been doing a lot

630
00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:34,430
of this I've been talking to people you

631
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:36,670
know face-to-face via things like Skype

632
00:23:40,890 --> 00:23:39,770
and I've done a lot of a lot of just

633
00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:40,900
basically text-based

634
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:44,060
discussion you know exchanging messages

635
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:47,210
as a message boards but I I really do

636
00:23:52,420 --> 00:23:49,030
prefer doing it face-to-face

637
00:23:55,030 --> 00:23:52,430
totally because yeah you already yeah

638
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:55,040
the the feedback you get from just

639
00:23:59,020 --> 00:23:57,050
seeing somebody and just actually you

640
00:24:01,060 --> 00:23:59,030
know talking to someone for a start is

641
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:01,070
better than exchanging messages and

642
00:24:05,140 --> 00:24:03,380
exchanging tweets you can get things

643
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:05,150
done a lot quicker and you can hear the

644
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:07,130
tone of voice and you can you hear the

645
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:08,810
pauses and you can hear the thoughts of

646
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:11,600
people and search it it's just a lot

647
00:24:15,790 --> 00:24:13,610
better and we're going to encourage

648
00:24:17,950 --> 00:24:15,800
people to do that I was gonna say though

649
00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:17,960
about the Thanksgiving thing I think the

650
00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:20,300
reason you see these articles isn't that

651
00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:22,280
they're encouraging people to jump on

652
00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:23,860
the Uncle when they

653
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:26,049
around is that you know the uncle when

654
00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:27,970
they do come around they often bring up

655
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:31,990
the topics themselves the the uncle will

656
00:24:35,660 --> 00:24:33,730
start talking about whatever strange

657
00:24:39,450 --> 00:24:35,670
belief he has and it gets a bit

658
00:24:40,950 --> 00:24:39,460
difficult for other people and it's in a

659
00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:40,960
way it's a way of defusing that

660
00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:43,809
situation rather than rather than you

661
00:24:47,930 --> 00:24:45,390
know starting to instigate something

662
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:47,940
there's some form of defensive method

663
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:52,000
maybe so I want to talk a bit about you

664
00:24:58,650 --> 00:24:53,890
know the actual techniques of Street

665
00:25:02,159 --> 00:24:58,660
epistemology you you use it interlocked

666
00:25:04,289 --> 00:25:02,169
Chua is a he pronounced a tyre I used to

667
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:04,299
say interlocutor and now I say enter

668
00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:07,330
into it interlocutor is there in a way

669
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:08,950
that I've that's I think I've been

670
00:25:12,270 --> 00:25:11,290
saying interlocutor for the last few

671
00:25:14,730 --> 00:25:12,280
years I think it's a conversation

672
00:25:17,909 --> 00:25:14,740
partner or might be an interview partner

673
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:17,919
I've heard people say friend discussion

674
00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:19,600
partner I mean there's I I use the term

675
00:25:24,150 --> 00:25:21,790
friends but I think that's because I'm

676
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:24,160
more aimed at talking at people you

677
00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:25,690
actually already know whereas you're

678
00:25:29,310 --> 00:25:26,830
you're quite often you just basically

679
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:29,320
approaching a stranger in the street or

680
00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:32,830
wherever and so in the the other person

681
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:36,280
he is I guess it's a little problematic

682
00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:37,600
if you've been using a word for years

683
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:38,980
and we we don't know how to pronounce it

684
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:42,850
it is it is and we make a what we sort

685
00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:44,530
of co-opted the word interlocutor to

686
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:46,390
usually mean the person that I as the

687
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:48,250
person using Street epistemology is

688
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:50,740
speaking right yeah when the definition

689
00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:53,290
is both parties both conversation

690
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:55,510
partners yes yeah so you've got this

691
00:25:58,950 --> 00:25:57,130
this this terminology that you have

692
00:26:00,720 --> 00:25:58,960
within Street epistemology which is use

693
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:00,730
obviously it's not meant to be used in

694
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:02,559
the conversation but it's issues when

695
00:26:05,490 --> 00:26:04,240
you're talking about the techniques and

696
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:05,500
this there's one really interesting

697
00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:07,840
thing that comes up quite often is the

698
00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:12,070
the notion of docks a stick closure can

699
00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:14,950
you explain what that actually is a very

700
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:17,740
academic term that I think first

701
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:19,690
surfaced at least came across I never

702
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:21,130
saw that word before until I read a

703
00:26:26,659 --> 00:26:24,370
Goshen's first book if I recall

704
00:26:29,299 --> 00:26:26,669
correctly it refers to a person's

705
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:29,309
tendency to be a little bit more guarded

706
00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:32,290
with regards to their belief they're

707
00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:34,120
protective of their belief so someone is

708
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:37,600
docks a Stickley closed my understanding

709
00:26:42,539 --> 00:26:40,570
is that they are expressing an

710
00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:42,549
unwillingness to reconsider that they

711
00:26:46,169 --> 00:26:45,070
might be mistaken that might be a might

712
00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:46,179
be often that might might want to

713
00:26:47,970 --> 00:26:47,320
double-check that but I think I'm okay

714
00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:47,980
with that

715
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:50,470
you occasionally do meet people who are

716
00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:52,330
so convinced that they're right that

717
00:26:57,450 --> 00:26:54,700
they can't even conceive or at least

718
00:26:59,250 --> 00:26:57,460
they express the idea that they can't

719
00:27:01,560 --> 00:26:59,260
conceive of the possibility that they

720
00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:01,570
might be mistaken on it so maybe another

721
00:27:06,210 --> 00:27:03,660
way of looking at it would be a dogmatic

722
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:06,220
person or a dogmatism might be another

723
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:08,260
member synonym of a right of access to

724
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:10,270
closure well you're kind of looking for

725
00:27:14,970 --> 00:27:12,130
someone whose docks a Stickley open

726
00:27:18,169 --> 00:27:14,980
ducks ducks I think is a maybe a Latin

727
00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:18,179
term for maybe it's Greek for belief and

728
00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:21,640
the more open and comfortable and honest

729
00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:23,320
a person is with you when you're

730
00:27:27,539 --> 00:27:26,049
engaging with them the more productive I

731
00:27:31,169 --> 00:27:27,549
think your conversation will be when you

732
00:27:31,740 --> 00:27:31,179
use Street epistemology with them does

733
00:27:34,169 --> 00:27:31,750
that make sense

734
00:27:35,789 --> 00:27:34,179
I mean yes you know it does it does yeah

735
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:35,799
if somebody's open and they feel safe

736
00:27:39,299 --> 00:27:36,640
and they don't feel like you're

737
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:39,309
misrepresenting them but you do run to a

738
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:42,490
lot of people who are just they're

739
00:27:48,539 --> 00:27:46,510
willfully ignorant on their position it

740
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:48,549
doesn't mean that the conversation is

741
00:27:51,870 --> 00:27:50,140
over you can still engage with a person

742
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:51,880
that way you might start talking about

743
00:27:55,710 --> 00:27:54,159
another person who holds a slightly

744
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:55,720
different view that's contradictory to

745
00:27:59,640 --> 00:27:58,240
theirs who might be just as dogmatic how

746
00:28:01,380 --> 00:27:59,650
do you think what suggestion do you

747
00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:01,390
think that you might have on how we can

748
00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:03,220
break through to that person who's just

749
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:04,990
as convinced as you are and if you

750
00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:07,690
listen to your interlocutor your

751
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:09,460
conversation partner they might start

752
00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:12,640
giving you ideas and on how you can

753
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:15,070
break through to them and that could be

754
00:28:19,529 --> 00:28:18,250
a useful approach sometimes I think we

755
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:19,539
might just have a tendency to throw up

756
00:28:24,210 --> 00:28:20,770
our hands this person is just too

757
00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:24,220
difficult they're too far gone yeah and

758
00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:26,350
maybe maybe some people are but I'm a

759
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:28,630
little bit more optimistic that the more

760
00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:30,970
people who learn these these approaches

761
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:33,190
the Street epistemology or the Socratic

762
00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:35,940
method and motivational interviewing a

763
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:38,350
variation of her apps what you're doing

764
00:28:44,190 --> 00:28:40,720
when you're engaging with people the

765
00:28:46,260 --> 00:28:44,200
more people I think who understand how

766
00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:46,270
problematic it could be to ridicule

767
00:28:48,930 --> 00:28:47,950
somebody and give them facts that show

768
00:28:51,060 --> 00:28:48,940
that they're mistaken if they're not

769
00:28:51,630 --> 00:28:51,070
ready for it there are some people who

770
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:51,640
are

771
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:53,410
the more that we can educate people on

772
00:28:58,620 --> 00:28:56,530
this other method the better I think it

773
00:29:01,169 --> 00:28:58,630
will be for Humanity and I think it

774
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:01,179
might start opening people more up to to

775
00:29:06,450 --> 00:29:03,610
epistemic humility to being humble

776
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:06,460
enough to say I'm fairly confident that

777
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:07,990
that's true but I I'm not a hundred

778
00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:10,630
percent sure I'm willing to budge a

779
00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:13,750
little bit that's anything I would love

780
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:16,420
to see a point where we get there but we

781
00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:17,890
might need to start teaching this and as

782
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:21,460
Jesus laid it had or indoctrinating the

783
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:24,970
youth versus ism in critical thinking

784
00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:27,850
and and humility epistemic humility

785
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:30,460
perhaps yeah it's interesting what you

786
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:32,080
were talking about that I was I was

787
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:34,770
thinking about the difference between

788
00:29:39,810 --> 00:29:36,970
religious people and conspiracy

789
00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:39,820
theorists when it comes to the docs exit

790
00:29:45,690 --> 00:29:41,980
closure and the open-mindedness type

791
00:29:47,340 --> 00:29:45,700
thing I religious people wouldn't

792
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:47,350
necessarily think of themselves as being

793
00:29:51,659 --> 00:29:50,110
open-minded because they they have they

794
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:51,669
have faith and they have belief and they

795
00:29:56,159 --> 00:29:53,770
they they are you know dr. su don't

796
00:30:00,210 --> 00:29:56,169
asticus be closed they may even take

797
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:00,220
pride in it yeah yeah I'm closed on it

798
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:02,710
yeah yeah blessed it is here was not

799
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:05,049
seen and yet believes is like a

800
00:30:11,159 --> 00:30:07,890
fundamental you know a tenet of

801
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:11,169
Christianity is that the people who

802
00:30:16,049 --> 00:30:14,110
didn't see Jesus being raised from the

803
00:30:18,590 --> 00:30:16,059
dead and yet still believed that he was

804
00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:18,600
raised from the dead as somehow more

805
00:30:25,070 --> 00:30:22,270
more holy and better and the people who

806
00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:25,080
actually based their beliefs of evidence

807
00:30:31,230 --> 00:30:29,230
right and this is this is a big topic in

808
00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:31,240
the goujian's latest book how to have

809
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:33,960
impossible conversations this idea of

810
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,690
talking to people about how they how

811
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:39,520
they view themselves and most people

812
00:30:45,870 --> 00:30:41,320
tend to view themselves as good moral

813
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:45,880
decent people and when you when you

814
00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:47,410
challenge a person's deeply held belief

815
00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:48,940
like a religious view or even a

816
00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:50,950
conspiracy a conspiratorial minded

817
00:30:53,820 --> 00:30:52,750
person on their are pet conspiracy

818
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:53,830
something that they've put a lot of

819
00:30:58,620 --> 00:30:56,980
effort in its core now who they are it's

820
00:31:00,750 --> 00:30:58,630
part of their identity when you

821
00:31:03,210 --> 00:31:00,760
challenge those views

822
00:31:05,250 --> 00:31:03,220
religious views included people will see

823
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:05,260
it as a challenge themselves which is

824
00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:08,910
why when we're using Street epistemology

825
00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:13,990
we we really want to separate the belief

826
00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:16,750
from the method that the person is using

827
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:18,700
to conclude that the belief is true and

828
00:31:22,860 --> 00:31:20,770
there's a there's a world of difference

829
00:31:24,420 --> 00:31:22,870
there people become very guarded when

830
00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:24,430
you talk about their belief what they

831
00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:26,830
think is true they might even become a

832
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:27,880
little bit guarded when you talk about

833
00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:29,050
their reasons like the personal

834
00:31:33,150 --> 00:31:31,390
experience they had but people tend to

835
00:31:35,790 --> 00:31:33,160
be a little bit more objective at

836
00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:35,800
looking at it with you if you focus on

837
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:37,630
their method that they used to conclude

838
00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:39,910
that that's a good reason for holding a

839
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:41,620
high degree of confidence in the claim

840
00:31:44,670 --> 00:31:43,210
that's where you can make the most

841
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:44,680
traction that's where the seeds get

842
00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:47,290
planted that's where you can you can

843
00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:49,300
inspire somebody to want to go out and

844
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:50,950
find better reasons or maybe continue a

845
00:31:55,140 --> 00:31:53,440
dialogue with you because there you've

846
00:31:57,420 --> 00:31:55,150
really got them thinking people that

847
00:31:59,700 --> 00:31:57,430
seems like to think about about these

848
00:32:01,530 --> 00:31:59,710
things they do they're not often given

849
00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:01,540
an opportunity to do it you see that in

850
00:32:06,210 --> 00:32:04,420
your videos like you you have someone a

851
00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:06,220
question and they pause and they think

852
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:09,550
maybe they're looking up thing which is

853
00:32:14,670 --> 00:32:11,170
something you strive to get them to do

854
00:32:16,170 --> 00:32:14,680
too if you if you ever see somebody take

855
00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:16,180
a second to think about what you just

856
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:19,630
asked them don't talk your eyes shut up

857
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:22,090
yeah let them let it I think let them

858
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:23,590
think about it it's so tempting to want

859
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:25,840
to interject and and help them out of

860
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:27,730
that awkward moment mm-hm and I think

861
00:32:31,140 --> 00:32:28,690
one of the best things that you can do

862
00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:31,150
is just let them let them think about it

863
00:32:35,250 --> 00:32:33,700
let them stew in it a little bit if they

864
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:35,260
need clarification they can ask you for

865
00:32:41,340 --> 00:32:39,120
it they might even be quiet for a minute

866
00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:41,350
because they're processing what it is

867
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:42,640
you've asked them now they might be

868
00:32:46,860 --> 00:32:45,130
confused too and they're like looking

869
00:32:47,970 --> 00:32:46,870
around like well now what do we do so

870
00:32:49,980 --> 00:32:47,980
you have to be paying attention to see

871
00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:49,990
what's going on but yeah give people

872
00:32:53,340 --> 00:32:51,400
time to think these things through try

873
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:53,350
not to rush it oh yeah that's definitely

874
00:32:58,740 --> 00:32:56,410
something I've learnt over the years as

875
00:33:01,020 --> 00:32:58,750
the you can't just like tell somebody

876
00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:01,030
something and then accept expect them to

877
00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:03,460
process that straightaway or even like

878
00:33:06,930 --> 00:33:04,780
you know raise questions and expect them

879
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:06,940
to answer straightaway it was a very

880
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:08,890
long process and with with a lot of

881
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:11,290
people you're planting seeds that may

882
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:14,000
not bear fruit for for weeks or months

883
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:16,370
afterwards some people is even years

884
00:33:21,130 --> 00:33:17,930
like some of the people I interviewed

885
00:33:23,170 --> 00:33:21,140
for my book they they were stuck in

886
00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:23,180
conspiracism for for many years before

887
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:25,790
they got out but the seeds that help

888
00:33:28,750 --> 00:33:26,570
them get out

889
00:33:31,180 --> 00:33:28,760
actually work and I planted over a long

890
00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:31,190
period of time so even that even though

891
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:32,780
it might seem like you're not doing any

892
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:35,090
good for these people even if they don't

893
00:33:39,580 --> 00:33:37,370
you do the look up and think type thing

894
00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:39,590
I still think you're still planting

895
00:33:45,610 --> 00:33:41,990
seeds that can be helpful in the long

896
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:45,620
term I think I think so and I like to

897
00:33:50,050 --> 00:33:48,050
record my interactions too if I have a

898
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:50,060
person's permission and then share it

899
00:33:53,530 --> 00:33:51,770
online so that other people can watch it

900
00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:53,540
and give me feedback but what's

901
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:55,460
interesting is I've had people email me

902
00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:57,290
or they even comment in the video that

903
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:00,080
the exchange that they watched has

904
00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:02,930
planted a seed in them mm-hmm and it's

905
00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:04,550
given them something to think about and

906
00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:06,580
people are emailing me messaging me I

907
00:34:11,409 --> 00:34:09,260
almost have a daily basis to say I no

908
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:11,419
longer believe that thing that you were

909
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:12,560
talking with that person on the trail

910
00:34:16,060 --> 00:34:14,000
about I don't believe it anymore because

911
00:34:17,590 --> 00:34:16,070
you started me on a journey of thinking

912
00:34:19,540 --> 00:34:17,600
about it myself and these are people

913
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,550
from around the world that I I've never

914
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:21,200
interacted with them they just watched a

915
00:34:25,869 --> 00:34:23,690
20 minute video yeah and that's why it's

916
00:34:27,399 --> 00:34:25,879
well valuable talking to people even who

917
00:34:29,169 --> 00:34:27,409
yeah even people who are Docs

918
00:34:30,970 --> 00:34:29,179
asthetically clothes I don't have to

919
00:34:33,310 --> 00:34:30,980
stop saying that word even people who

920
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:33,320
are very close minded and very like firm

921
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:35,690
in their faith or their belief in

922
00:34:39,460 --> 00:34:37,310
whatever you know thing they believe in

923
00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:39,470
even if you even if you don't shift them

924
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:40,700
you can chip somebody else because

925
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:42,470
there's quite often there is an audience

926
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:45,110
I know your videos like you know have an

927
00:34:48,879 --> 00:34:47,210
audience of other people but even when

928
00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:48,889
I'm chatting with somebody on Facebook

929
00:34:53,649 --> 00:34:52,040
or on Twitter I know that there are

930
00:34:56,139 --> 00:34:53,659
people listening like one of the guys I

931
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:56,149
interviewed for my podcast awhile ago he

932
00:35:01,090 --> 00:34:58,370
said he kind of came around to my way of

933
00:35:04,210 --> 00:35:01,100
thinking to a degree because he was

934
00:35:06,460 --> 00:35:04,220
watching me argue with people on on

935
00:35:08,980 --> 00:35:06,470
Facebook in one of the 9/11 Facebook

936
00:35:11,650 --> 00:35:08,990
groups and he had these people in the

937
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:11,660
group they weren't shifting at all but

938
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:15,350
because I politely persisted in in

939
00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:18,410
talking to Thurmond you didn't didn't

940
00:35:23,590 --> 00:35:22,190
like you know go down into the you know

941
00:35:26,220 --> 00:35:23,600
the insults and the shouting with what

942
00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:26,230
which a lot of people do

943
00:35:30,810 --> 00:35:28,840
and he actually started to listen to

944
00:35:32,070 --> 00:35:30,820
what I was saying and I think that's the

945
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:32,080
same thing with what you're doing people

946
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:33,730
are gonna be listening to what you're

947
00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:35,920
saying is because you know you you you

948
00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:39,030
are you're nice you're polite you're

949
00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:42,150
respectful and you you raise good points

950
00:35:46,590 --> 00:35:44,020
yeah I think there's something to that I

951
00:35:48,270 --> 00:35:46,600
think there's that bystander effect

952
00:35:51,150 --> 00:35:48,280
well that means something completely

953
00:35:52,590 --> 00:35:51,160
different but there is yeah there's the

954
00:35:54,540 --> 00:35:52,600
there are people usually watching these

955
00:35:56,580 --> 00:35:54,550
exchanges whether it's if I'm

956
00:35:58,050 --> 00:35:56,590
interviewing the two folk the two

957
00:35:59,580 --> 00:35:58,060
missionaries from the LDS Church I might

958
00:36:00,900 --> 00:35:59,590
be talking to one guy while the other

959
00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:00,910
one is really thinking about the

960
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:03,460
question that I just asked this dude

961
00:36:06,780 --> 00:36:04,720
or maybe you yeah when you're online

962
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:06,790
people might just be taking a back light

963
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:08,890
like that's somebody who I completely

964
00:36:12,780 --> 00:36:10,390
disagree with but he's being so much

965
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:12,790
nicer than that guy for my news idly

966
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:15,730
exactly him like why isn't my guy from

967
00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:17,410
my tribe being just as nice as him he's

968
00:36:21,150 --> 00:36:19,030
really being a jerk but this guy's being

969
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:21,160
so nice that might just be what it takes

970
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:24,490
to to have a guy the observers take

971
00:36:27,150 --> 00:36:25,810
another look at your what you're saying

972
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:27,160
and what you're asking and really think

973
00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:28,570
about it when when they're not in the

974
00:36:36,180 --> 00:36:34,119
hot seat per se yeah yeah way to look at

975
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:36,190
you've got this this article then if you

976
00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:38,710
wrote it but this Street epistemology of

977
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:40,960
the basics on Street epistemology calm

978
00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:43,090
which is having a great introduction to

979
00:36:47,250 --> 00:36:45,180
what Street epistemology actually is

980
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:47,260
someone wants to figure out you know

981
00:36:52,140 --> 00:36:48,250
find out what we're actually talking

982
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:52,150
about here we we do cover most of the

983
00:36:55,140 --> 00:36:53,950
basics there so what I want to do real

984
00:36:56,970 --> 00:36:55,150
quickly just kind of go through the ten

985
00:37:00,450 --> 00:36:56,980
steps in it and just let's see like you

986
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:00,460
know what Oh what does that as the ten

987
00:37:06,540 --> 00:37:02,770
steps this this is nine there's eight

988
00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:06,550
steps there's ten it's better because

989
00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:08,680
I'm thinking about making well I made a

990
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:13,150
tutorial series of videos for 2015 it's

991
00:37:15,390 --> 00:37:13,930
a little dated

992
00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:15,400
we've learned so much since then and I

993
00:37:18,450 --> 00:37:16,630
was thinking about refreshing that

994
00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:18,460
series and I definitely be more than

995
00:37:22,349 --> 00:37:19,990
eight little videos I think I'd probably

996
00:37:24,270 --> 00:37:22,359
have to do like fifteen or twenty and

997
00:37:25,830 --> 00:37:24,280
chunk it up well this is this is this

998
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:25,840
kind of like a quick you're getting into

999
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:27,490
it's like so I mean the first thing is

1000
00:37:33,060 --> 00:37:30,160
step one is build rapport with your your

1001
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:33,070
intellect your the other conversational

1002
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:35,170
partner conversation partner yes yeah

1003
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:36,970
very critical it shows people that

1004
00:37:39,630 --> 00:37:38,530
you're listening to them you're hearing

1005
00:37:42,210 --> 00:37:39,640
what they're saying

1006
00:37:45,390 --> 00:37:42,220
and oftentimes during the rapport

1007
00:37:47,580 --> 00:37:45,400
building phase well it's it helps you to

1008
00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:47,590
see that that individual is a person

1009
00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:49,360
there are human being with emotions and

1010
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,340
they see you is in the same way usually

1011
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:53,440
but oftentimes they might reveal

1012
00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:55,450
something about like maybe they maybe

1013
00:37:59,400 --> 00:37:58,030
they build bridges or they they're an

1014
00:38:01,470 --> 00:37:59,410
engineer I mean there's something like

1015
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:01,480
that or you might you might learn

1016
00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:03,520
something about what they do in in

1017
00:38:07,470 --> 00:38:05,830
regular life that could be useful later

1018
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:07,480
on when we get to step like six or seven

1019
00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:09,010
when you're challenging how they

1020
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:10,720
concluded that something is true could

1021
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:12,640
we possibly use that same method to

1022
00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:14,590
construct a bridge yeah if you were

1023
00:38:17,940 --> 00:38:16,180
hiring an employee at work at the bank

1024
00:38:19,470 --> 00:38:17,950
do you think that you use that same

1025
00:38:20,190 --> 00:38:19,480
method to figure out the best candidate

1026
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:20,200
for the job

1027
00:38:24,510 --> 00:38:22,000
see if putting in terms they understand

1028
00:38:27,330 --> 00:38:24,520
and because they're lates to they'll

1029
00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:27,340
speak their language people love to to

1030
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:28,060
be listened to

1031
00:38:31,590 --> 00:38:29,920
yeah and obviously like you wouldn't

1032
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:31,600
start off on the right foot with these

1033
00:38:36,210 --> 00:38:34,090
these conversations and that you as

1034
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:36,220
these are that was something that's not

1035
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:37,810
immediately concentration or

1036
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:40,720
confrontational yeah people yeah this

1037
00:38:44,970 --> 00:38:42,250
actually reminds me what you what I find

1038
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:44,980
that usually happens on social media not

1039
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:46,480
usually in person although it can't

1040
00:38:50,220 --> 00:38:48,730
happen in person - yeah let's say I'm at

1041
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:50,230
a protest I might be arguing with

1042
00:38:54,450 --> 00:38:52,330
somebody and then it dawns on me oh this

1043
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:54,460
isn't this isn't gonna be effective let

1044
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:56,050
me reel this back and try this different

1045
00:39:00,090 --> 00:38:57,850
way and sometimes I do that on social

1046
00:39:02,610 --> 00:39:00,100
media too I make a snide comment on

1047
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,620
somebody's post and then they write fly

1048
00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:04,480
back and now I'm like ooh now I gotta

1049
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:05,560
kind of walk that back

1050
00:39:08,670 --> 00:39:07,510
it doesn't even though you might start

1051
00:39:10,050 --> 00:39:08,680
off on the wrong foot it doesn't mean

1052
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:10,060
that the conversation is doomed even if

1053
00:39:13,770 --> 00:39:12,370
you've been going about it the the

1054
00:39:17,010 --> 00:39:13,780
opposite way of what we're talking about

1055
00:39:19,380 --> 00:39:17,020
for years the the conversation is still

1056
00:39:20,780 --> 00:39:19,390
the yeah the conversation or the topic

1057
00:39:22,650 --> 00:39:20,790
that you're talking about is still

1058
00:39:24,540 --> 00:39:22,660
repairable I think you could still get

1059
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:24,550
through it yeah you can always kind of

1060
00:39:28,170 --> 00:39:26,170
do some kind of reboot and like you know

1061
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:28,180
yeah I say to people like oh I think we

1062
00:39:32,850 --> 00:39:30,160
got off on the wrong foot here that's

1063
00:39:34,380 --> 00:39:32,860
exactly the try start again like it what

1064
00:39:36,810 --> 00:39:34,390
are we talking about which brings us

1065
00:39:40,530 --> 00:39:36,820
right up to which is identifying the

1066
00:39:42,810 --> 00:39:40,540
claim so it's like what are they

1067
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:42,820
actually claiming but how do you how do

1068
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:45,280
you kind of like bring that out you just

1069
00:39:47,730 --> 00:39:46,450
ask them this is something you believe

1070
00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:47,740
in or do you believe in this

1071
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:50,110
I don't usually well when I first

1072
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:52,570
started going out I had a claim in mind

1073
00:39:55,740 --> 00:39:53,140
that I want

1074
00:39:57,359 --> 00:39:55,750
to challenge people on mm-hmm and these

1075
00:39:59,099 --> 00:39:57,369
days because we know that this tool can

1076
00:40:00,329 --> 00:39:59,109
be used for all sorts of claims I ask a

1077
00:40:02,250 --> 00:40:00,339
person to pick the claim that they think

1078
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:02,260
is true that motivates them to behave in

1079
00:40:06,089 --> 00:40:04,510
a certain way something that you find

1080
00:40:08,190 --> 00:40:06,099
yourself acting out on because you think

1081
00:40:09,839 --> 00:40:08,200
that it's true do you avoid giving your

1082
00:40:11,549 --> 00:40:09,849
kid plastic cups because you think that

1083
00:40:12,839 --> 00:40:11,559
the chemicals in the in the plastic are

1084
00:40:15,029 --> 00:40:12,849
going to taint the water when you put in

1085
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:15,039
the microwave or this approach seems to

1086
00:40:18,210 --> 00:40:16,450
be really effective when you when you

1087
00:40:20,190 --> 00:40:18,220
start with a claim that people are

1088
00:40:22,410 --> 00:40:20,200
acting out on if people are sort of like

1089
00:40:23,940 --> 00:40:22,420
I'm gonna wish you washing on it yeah I

1090
00:40:25,140 --> 00:40:23,950
don't really know if paper bags are read

1091
00:40:27,509 --> 00:40:25,150
in the plastic I don't really care

1092
00:40:29,309 --> 00:40:27,519
either way you can still explore that

1093
00:40:32,779 --> 00:40:29,319
using this approach but it seems to be

1094
00:40:35,819 --> 00:40:32,789
much more profound and effective and

1095
00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:35,829
shocking when you watch it on YouTube if

1096
00:40:37,259 --> 00:40:37,089
it's something that's core to who they

1097
00:40:39,450 --> 00:40:37,269
are

1098
00:40:41,460 --> 00:40:39,460
you know as far as like topic selection

1099
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:41,470
I usually just sometimes people don't

1100
00:40:44,190 --> 00:40:42,640
know what to pick because I'm just

1101
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:44,200
asking them out of the blue let's pick a

1102
00:40:49,289 --> 00:40:47,410
topic but that usually helps it's kind

1103
00:40:51,059 --> 00:40:49,299
of narrow it done see you're actually

1104
00:40:55,220 --> 00:40:51,069
doing something that has an effect on

1105
00:40:57,660 --> 00:40:55,230
the life ideally changes that behavior

1106
00:40:58,980 --> 00:40:57,670
possibly yeah let's pick a claim that

1107
00:41:01,380 --> 00:40:58,990
you think is true that you're acting out

1108
00:41:03,089 --> 00:41:01,390
on and you're you're teaching other

1109
00:41:05,220 --> 00:41:03,099
people this because you think that it's

1110
00:41:08,130 --> 00:41:05,230
true so for example I ran into a woman

1111
00:41:10,349 --> 00:41:08,140
who said that her grandmother had taught

1112
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:10,359
her that when a deceased relatives dies

1113
00:41:14,130 --> 00:41:12,130
you should leave water out for them this

1114
00:41:16,049 --> 00:41:14,140
is something that she does that would be

1115
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:16,059
a great thing to talk about with her and

1116
00:41:21,779 --> 00:41:19,089
I did yeah that's very interesting I

1117
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:21,789
stated the first example was given in

1118
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:24,160
this thing is actually they believe in

1119
00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:28,450
UFOs but I guess like most of your

1120
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:30,670
videos do seem to center around religion

1121
00:41:35,609 --> 00:41:32,890
is that the you by far the most thing

1122
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:35,619
common thing that comes up or is it

1123
00:41:42,059 --> 00:41:40,390
changing mmm as a changing I don't know

1124
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,069
I don't know if I could adequately

1125
00:41:48,269 --> 00:41:44,880
answer that question if it's changing

1126
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:48,279
but most people in my area because I

1127
00:41:51,539 --> 00:41:50,319
live in Texas and I when I ask them to

1128
00:41:54,509 --> 00:41:51,549
pick something that similar to who they

1129
00:41:56,759 --> 00:41:54,519
are and perhaps they think that I'm an

1130
00:41:58,589 --> 00:41:56,769
Evette evangelical Christian or

1131
00:42:00,830 --> 00:41:58,599
something because of of the town that

1132
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:00,840
I'm in maybe they maybe that's

1133
00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:03,730
skewing the topic selection perhaps but

1134
00:42:07,260 --> 00:42:05,470
I try to give them a couple of different

1135
00:42:09,390 --> 00:42:07,270
options - we can talk about karma ghosts

1136
00:42:11,310 --> 00:42:09,400
politics social justice whatever and

1137
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:11,320
then I you know they usually pick

1138
00:42:16,970 --> 00:42:13,510
something yeah I saw you had one which

1139
00:42:19,470 --> 00:42:16,980
was an atheist who believed in karma

1140
00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:19,480
she's also an interesting interesting

1141
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:20,860
thing is that you get people who are

1142
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:23,290
atheists and yet they believe in some

1143
00:42:27,150 --> 00:42:24,400
kind of thing that's essentially

1144
00:42:29,580 --> 00:42:27,160
supernatural but they perhaps haven't

1145
00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:29,590
thought about what the implications of

1146
00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:32,320
this supernatural thing actually

1147
00:42:38,190 --> 00:42:35,140
actually are and yeah if you believe in

1148
00:42:40,290 --> 00:42:38,200
karma why don't you believe in God yeah

1149
00:42:42,780 --> 00:42:40,300
or sometimes I meet people who believe

1150
00:42:44,370 --> 00:42:42,790
in God and karma and I asked them hmm

1151
00:42:46,410 --> 00:42:44,380
would you is your belief in karma

1152
00:42:49,650 --> 00:42:46,420
dependent on believing in God and they

1153
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:49,660
oftentimes say yes so if sometimes I'll

1154
00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:51,310
ask questions to narrow down the topic

1155
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:52,900
selection so in that instance I might

1156
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:54,970
say well let's set karma aside for now

1157
00:42:59,310 --> 00:42:57,280
and let's focus on God since since your

1158
00:43:01,140 --> 00:42:59,320
view on karma isn't influenced by the by

1159
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:01,150
the God belief let's would you be okay

1160
00:43:04,740 --> 00:43:03,010
if we talked about that and sometimes

1161
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:04,750
they say that one's just a little bit

1162
00:43:06,690 --> 00:43:05,770
too close to home I think I'd be a

1163
00:43:08,610 --> 00:43:06,700
little bit more comfortable talking

1164
00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:08,620
about Karma and then I say okay that's

1165
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:10,510
fine we can do that but it does it

1166
00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:11,890
almost doesn't matter the topic that you

1167
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:15,550
pick because the the subsequent of steps

1168
00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:16,570
that I think you're probably going to be

1169
00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:19,180
mentioning will pretty much work with

1170
00:43:25,410 --> 00:43:23,640
any claim that you that you select and

1171
00:43:28,050 --> 00:43:25,420
hopefully by the time that you're done

1172
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:28,060
with the conversation and you might have

1173
00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:29,680
to do a couple with with the same person

1174
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:32,140
but it's it could be really valuable if

1175
00:43:36,420 --> 00:43:34,330
you're in the process of exploring their

1176
00:43:39,180 --> 00:43:36,430
their confidence in their claim and

1177
00:43:41,310 --> 00:43:39,190
their reasons and their methods you

1178
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:41,320
could be teaching them how to do this so

1179
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:43,090
sometimes it might even be better to

1180
00:43:47,870 --> 00:43:45,930
take a safer topic like karma and

1181
00:43:50,670 --> 00:43:47,880
interrogated in a friendly way and

1182
00:43:52,050 --> 00:43:50,680
perhaps in part that tool set so that

1183
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:52,060
they can maybe look into Street

1184
00:43:56,430 --> 00:43:54,610
epistemology or try to replicate the

1185
00:43:58,590 --> 00:43:56,440
questions that I asked about this safe

1186
00:44:00,440 --> 00:43:58,600
topic of karma on something a little bit

1187
00:44:03,930 --> 00:44:00,450
more closer to home like the God belief

1188
00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:03,940
yeah yeah and that kind of tells me

1189
00:44:09,630 --> 00:44:07,120
something I do which is try to focus on

1190
00:44:12,210 --> 00:44:09,640
something on the fringes of the belief

1191
00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:12,220
spectrum so you take things that then

1192
00:44:17,330 --> 00:44:13,680
perhaps not so

1193
00:44:19,070 --> 00:44:17,340
100% sure about and then you talk to

1194
00:44:21,050 --> 00:44:19,080
them about that and why do you suspect

1195
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:21,060
this might be true or why do you think

1196
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:22,560
it's true and you know what would it

1197
00:44:26,540 --> 00:44:24,960
take you to step just from this side of

1198
00:44:29,290 --> 00:44:26,550
the line to that side of the line and

1199
00:44:32,090 --> 00:44:29,300
you begin to focus on you know one thing

1200
00:44:33,860 --> 00:44:32,100
like that that isn't perhaps that's

1201
00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:33,870
threatening to their entire belief

1202
00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:36,600
system then it allows them to think

1203
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:38,760
about you know why they're believing in

1204
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:41,520
this thing and perhaps apply the same

1205
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:43,050
things to things that are a bit further

1206
00:44:48,770 --> 00:44:46,560
down there their solidity spectrum in

1207
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:48,780
terms of what they actually believe yeah

1208
00:44:52,130 --> 00:44:50,460
I think that's a good approach like I

1209
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:52,140
think I even mentioned it during the

1210
00:44:55,970 --> 00:44:53,550
conversation with the woman about

1211
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:55,980
spirits and water and stuff her name is

1212
00:45:00,560 --> 00:44:56,880
maritza

1213
00:45:01,820 --> 00:45:00,570
but I think at the end we started

1214
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:01,830
talking about how we may have actually

1215
00:45:05,780 --> 00:45:04,170
created a template for her so that she

1216
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:05,790
can go home because I think she says

1217
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,110
something at the end like now I'm

1218
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:09,920
questioning all of my faith beliefs and

1219
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:11,850
then we started talking about well maybe

1220
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:13,410
you can just take this take this

1221
00:45:16,490 --> 00:45:15,210
discussion that we had and and think

1222
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:16,500
about it and then maybe you can start

1223
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:17,970
asking yourself the same questions about

1224
00:45:20,810 --> 00:45:19,680
these other things so yeah I think that

1225
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:20,820
that approach that you're talking about

1226
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:22,770
might actually be pretty smart to do

1227
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:25,770
yeah well it's like whip through these

1228
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:27,540
other steps step three is confirmed a

1229
00:45:31,250 --> 00:45:29,910
flame that's like complaining that you

1230
00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:31,260
have understood what they are talking

1231
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:32,460
about I mean that kind of goes back to

1232
00:45:36,140 --> 00:45:33,690
what we're talking about earlier with

1233
00:45:37,930 --> 00:45:36,150
definitions of words so nicely how do

1234
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:37,940
you go about confirming it do you you

1235
00:45:42,860 --> 00:45:40,140
rephrase it to them in a different way

1236
00:45:45,230 --> 00:45:42,870
or good question I might say something

1237
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:45,240
like okay just so I understand when you

1238
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:47,040
say God I think what you're referring to

1239
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:50,910
is an all-powerful entity who has the

1240
00:45:55,490 --> 00:45:53,970
ability to influence how humans interact

1241
00:45:59,900 --> 00:45:55,500
with reality do I have that right and

1242
00:46:01,130 --> 00:45:59,910
they might say yes right and I say no

1243
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:01,140
that's way off how do you even get that

1244
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:03,210
or they might say now that you're

1245
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:05,010
repeating it back to me that's not

1246
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:07,050
exactly what I mean can I just tweak it

1247
00:46:10,190 --> 00:46:08,490
a little bit and so you're fine-tuning

1248
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:10,200
it you're getting it you're getting it

1249
00:46:14,060 --> 00:46:12,510
perfected but not to the point where

1250
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:14,070
it's like you're locking it in and you

1251
00:46:17,390 --> 00:46:15,900
you won't budge on it from that point on

1252
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:17,400
it's sort of like a temporary

1253
00:46:20,270 --> 00:46:18,930
placeholder I think this is what we're

1254
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:20,280
talking about and you can even do this

1255
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:21,930
with their reasons and their method - I

1256
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,090
think this is the reason why you think

1257
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:26,880
that this thing is true yeah exact is

1258
00:46:29,180 --> 00:46:27,510
that correct

1259
00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:29,190
and then you can revisit these things

1260
00:46:32,210 --> 00:46:30,480
and come back and change them if need be

1261
00:46:33,470 --> 00:46:32,220
you need to be flexible about it you

1262
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:33,480
don't need to be it's it's

1263
00:46:38,260 --> 00:46:35,220
counterproductive I think also to be

1264
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:38,270
rigid about how you go about doing this

1265
00:46:42,860 --> 00:46:40,560
some people might be ready to jump right

1266
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,870
into their reasons or their method but

1267
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:44,400
it does seem to make more sense to like

1268
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:47,130
get a really clear understanding of what

1269
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:48,720
they mean by these words and even their

1270
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:50,370
confidence level how sure are you that

1271
00:46:53,570 --> 00:46:51,810
this is true is that one of the steps

1272
00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:53,580
yeah those are other steps that so we'll

1273
00:46:56,510 --> 00:46:55,350
step four is clarify definitions which

1274
00:46:58,250 --> 00:46:56,520
you kind of went over there you know

1275
00:46:59,720 --> 00:46:58,260
what do you mean by the word God or true

1276
00:47:02,360 --> 00:46:59,730
or whatever and then Step five is

1277
00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:02,370
identify a confidence level and I think

1278
00:47:06,020 --> 00:47:04,380
this is a technique that Bogosian like

1279
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:06,030
talks about it is like getting people to

1280
00:47:12,590 --> 00:47:09,410
put a number on on something you know

1281
00:47:15,830 --> 00:47:12,600
establishing a scale for thing right on

1282
00:47:18,830 --> 00:47:15,840
a scale of one to one to 100 you know

1283
00:47:20,420 --> 00:47:18,840
how strongly do you believe in these and

1284
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:20,430
is this something that you you you

1285
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:22,770
almost always do in your your videos and

1286
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:25,200
your discussions rather I don't always

1287
00:47:30,020 --> 00:47:27,270
do it but if I don't do it I almost

1288
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:30,030
always regret not having done it because

1289
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:31,530
I get to the end of a conversation and

1290
00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:33,150
they're expressing some doubts and

1291
00:47:37,460 --> 00:47:35,700
questioning those those pauses and those

1292
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:37,470
those were flexible poses that we talked

1293
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:39,330
about and I'm sometimes kicking myself

1294
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:41,250
when I asked them how sure they were at

1295
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:42,720
the beginning because now I can compare

1296
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:46,530
to see if they moved but it's almost a

1297
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:48,060
dead giveaway when you say well on a

1298
00:47:51,410 --> 00:47:49,770
scale from zero to 100 or one to ten how

1299
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:51,420
sure are you that this is true that

1300
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:52,530
could be a dead giveaway that you're

1301
00:47:57,530 --> 00:47:54,570
doing Street epistemology and in some

1302
00:47:58,700 --> 00:47:57,540
circles that can close people down so

1303
00:48:00,880 --> 00:47:58,710
you have to be careful about when you

1304
00:48:03,110 --> 00:48:00,890
roll it out I've been experimenting with

1305
00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:03,120
getting an idea of what their claim is

1306
00:48:06,970 --> 00:48:04,710
and how they're talking about the claim

1307
00:48:09,350 --> 00:48:06,980
and how they're behaving with our body I

1308
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,360
don't even think I asked that the the

1309
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:11,760
LDS missionaries when they walk by how

1310
00:48:15,170 --> 00:48:13,200
sure they were on a scale from zero to

1311
00:48:16,910 --> 00:48:15,180
100 that's true I mean I think that

1312
00:48:19,340 --> 00:48:16,920
they're fairly confident that it's true

1313
00:48:21,530 --> 00:48:19,350
they're out there now they I think mid

1314
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:21,540
conversation I did ask them that because

1315
00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:22,890
it's useful to get a sense of where

1316
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:24,150
they're at but you don't have to do it

1317
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:26,910
it's a good subjective indicator that's

1318
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:28,650
being self reported by your conversation

1319
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:30,540
partner and and I find that it's fairly

1320
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:32,940
useful sometimes I'm surprised by the

1321
00:48:38,940 --> 00:48:34,890
answers people give when I ask that

1322
00:48:42,299 --> 00:48:38,950
question - yeah like 87% so something

1323
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:42,309
I've actually said I think I've did you

1324
00:48:47,370 --> 00:48:43,510
pull that number I just out of random

1325
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:47,380
because I think titled it yeah it's a t

1326
00:48:55,049 --> 00:48:50,079
73 I think it was very specific number

1327
00:48:57,150 --> 00:48:55,059
varies then sure than got Israel I think

1328
00:48:59,640 --> 00:48:57,160
that conversation was about karma mmm

1329
00:49:01,530 --> 00:48:59,650
but yeah sometimes people will even say

1330
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:01,540
turn off the camera and I'll tell you my

1331
00:49:05,490 --> 00:49:04,089
real confidence level no really and is

1332
00:49:09,690 --> 00:49:05,500
it is it lower than the public

1333
00:49:12,359 --> 00:49:09,700
confidence level yes interesting just to

1334
00:49:15,089 --> 00:49:12,369
hear yeah yeah there if you see the e

1335
00:49:16,890 --> 00:49:15,099
here they about priests who don't

1336
00:49:18,569 --> 00:49:16,900
believe in God and things like that's

1337
00:49:21,780 --> 00:49:18,579
all the time so I'm a lot of I think

1338
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:21,790
social pressure for people to say they

1339
00:49:26,099 --> 00:49:23,680
believe in things but perhaps they're

1340
00:49:27,690 --> 00:49:26,109
having secret doubts yes they're not

1341
00:49:30,569 --> 00:49:27,700
willing to talk to you about it and it's

1342
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:30,579
very interesting is that something that

1343
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:32,049
happens a lot of you get the sense that

1344
00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:33,970
there's a lot of that going on people

1345
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:36,190
aren't really at a hundred but they feel

1346
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:39,010
compelled to say a hundred I think that

1347
00:49:43,049 --> 00:49:41,200
happens quite a bit but I don't know I

1348
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:43,059
can only go off of what they're telling

1349
00:49:45,930 --> 00:49:45,010
me even if they say I'm a hundred and

1350
00:49:48,660 --> 00:49:45,940
then at the end of the conversation

1351
00:49:50,789 --> 00:49:48,670
they're 80 percent mmm did they just

1352
00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:50,799
feel obligated to say that because they

1353
00:49:54,059 --> 00:49:52,569
thought that is my objective all along

1354
00:49:57,559 --> 00:49:54,069
and they just don't want to make me feel

1355
00:50:01,020 --> 00:49:57,569
bad or something I always yeah exactly

1356
00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:01,030
who knows what the motivation is yeah so

1357
00:50:05,579 --> 00:50:03,910
yeah so we've identified a confidence

1358
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:05,589
level and then the next step is to

1359
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:09,130
identify the method used to arrive at

1360
00:50:11,579 --> 00:50:10,510
the confidence level now I think this is

1361
00:50:13,319 --> 00:50:11,589
probably going to be the most

1362
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:13,329
complicated step and the one that's

1363
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:16,450
going to make people think a lot and so

1364
00:50:19,799 --> 00:50:17,410
you have to you have to talk about it a

1365
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:19,809
lot what - well if people's reactions

1366
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:21,490
when you say like what method did you

1367
00:50:26,430 --> 00:50:24,970
use to get to this 100% was there step

1368
00:50:28,410 --> 00:50:26,440
in between those because it seems like

1369
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:28,420
there's something missing I can identify

1370
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:30,880
a confidence level before that and then

1371
00:50:36,299 --> 00:50:33,760
so and then in the method um Ian

1372
00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:36,309
straight to method so yeah how confident

1373
00:50:41,460 --> 00:50:37,990
are you I'm a hundred how how did you

1374
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:41,470
arrive at being yeah a hundred this is

1375
00:50:45,660 --> 00:50:43,930
why I was saying like if I were to redo

1376
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:45,670
this in a video format I would probably

1377
00:50:50,039 --> 00:50:47,890
have 15 steps there's a there's a

1378
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,049
crucial step in between okay getting a

1379
00:50:55,770 --> 00:50:52,480
person's claim lockdown and

1380
00:50:57,090 --> 00:50:55,780
oh sure they are that it's true it's and

1381
00:50:59,790 --> 00:50:57,100
figuring out what method that they're

1382
00:51:01,620 --> 00:50:59,800
using to confirm all of us it's to

1383
00:51:04,830 --> 00:51:01,630
figure out what reason they're using to

1384
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:04,840
believe so for example I guess I'll just

1385
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:06,970
go back to the to the individual who

1386
00:51:10,859 --> 00:51:09,760
said that her grandmother was telling

1387
00:51:13,230 --> 00:51:10,869
you that you need you need to leave

1388
00:51:14,940 --> 00:51:13,240
water out for your deceased loved ones

1389
00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:14,950
because the spirits don't go away right

1390
00:51:20,430 --> 00:51:18,790
away I would ask and I did ask why why

1391
00:51:22,590 --> 00:51:20,440
do you think that what is your reason

1392
00:51:24,930 --> 00:51:22,600
what's your main justification and her

1393
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:24,940
justification was well in the middle of

1394
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:26,530
the night I'll hear footsteps going down

1395
00:51:31,710 --> 00:51:29,920
the hallway hmm that's her reason which

1396
00:51:36,450 --> 00:51:31,720
is which is different than method the

1397
00:51:38,370 --> 00:51:36,460
indeed yes and method would be you wanna

1398
00:51:42,990 --> 00:51:38,380
take a stab at or you will no no it's

1399
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:43,000
like the it's it's basically asking them

1400
00:51:48,750 --> 00:51:46,650
what the evidence is the that they use

1401
00:51:50,250 --> 00:51:48,760
to believe it which is kind of like

1402
00:51:52,740 --> 00:51:50,260
community identifying the method is

1403
00:51:54,180 --> 00:51:52,750
identifying the method and the reasons I

1404
00:51:56,099 --> 00:51:54,190
guess you could put those together in

1405
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:56,109
the same the same thing like you know

1406
00:52:01,050 --> 00:51:58,000
you're asking them why they're at a

1407
00:52:03,420 --> 00:52:01,060
hundred percent you know what what what

1408
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:03,430
what reasons what evidence do you have

1409
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:05,680
for this and then I guess that the

1410
00:52:09,390 --> 00:52:07,450
method is are you asking them about what

1411
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:09,400
what type of logical steps they are

1412
00:52:13,859 --> 00:52:11,680
going through in their mind to arrive at

1413
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:13,869
100% or are they calculating they're not

1414
00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:15,490
calculating the odds of being right

1415
00:52:19,349 --> 00:52:17,320
obviously not usually these are usually

1416
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:19,359
just sort of subjective fly by the seat

1417
00:52:23,580 --> 00:52:20,800
of my pants type of number that I'm

1418
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:23,590
gonna throw it no method would be so her

1419
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:25,930
reason is I hear footsteps going down

1420
00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:28,210
the hallway and my grandmother says that

1421
00:52:34,290 --> 00:52:31,990
spirits get thirsty and I might even

1422
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:34,300
talk to my grandma grandma who says oh

1423
00:52:37,290 --> 00:52:35,890
yeah those footsteps I heard them too

1424
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:37,300
and that's that's your uncle that was

1425
00:52:42,180 --> 00:52:39,850
that was that was his spirit so

1426
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:42,190
methodology epistemology it's how we

1427
00:52:49,349 --> 00:52:46,690
know things how how are we coming to

1428
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:49,359
arrive at our conclusions so what I

1429
00:52:53,820 --> 00:52:52,090
would ask is how did you determine I

1430
00:52:55,590 --> 00:52:53,830
don't even dismiss the the footsteps

1431
00:52:57,720 --> 00:52:55,600
well we actually talked a little bit

1432
00:53:00,450 --> 00:52:57,730
about that if I remember right I said

1433
00:53:02,550 --> 00:53:00,460
something like you're calling them

1434
00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:02,560
footsteps are they footsteps where they

1435
00:53:06,339 --> 00:53:04,990
sounds that you're hearing that you're

1436
00:53:08,019 --> 00:53:06,349
calling footsteps

1437
00:53:10,689 --> 00:53:08,029
so we had a little bit of a discussion

1438
00:53:11,769 --> 00:53:10,699
about that which she said okay no that's

1439
00:53:13,479 --> 00:53:11,779
actually a good point you got me

1440
00:53:15,309 --> 00:53:13,489
thinking here there are sounds that I

1441
00:53:18,039 --> 00:53:15,319
think our footsteps but the crucial

1442
00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:18,049
piece the the biggest the biggest bang

1443
00:53:22,949 --> 00:53:20,209
for your buck when engaging somebody on

1444
00:53:27,130 --> 00:53:22,959
these claims is to get into their method

1445
00:53:28,989 --> 00:53:27,140
how how did you conclude that the sounds

1446
00:53:31,420 --> 00:53:28,999
that you're hearing I'm gonna go with

1447
00:53:33,099 --> 00:53:31,430
you on this you're hearing something how

1448
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:33,109
did you determine that the sounds that

1449
00:53:38,849 --> 00:53:35,930
you're hearing are indeed the ghosts of

1450
00:53:41,229 --> 00:53:38,859
your deceased grandfather or uncle and

1451
00:53:42,219 --> 00:53:41,239
that's usually when people like that's

1452
00:53:43,390 --> 00:53:42,229
usually when you get those spider

1453
00:53:47,170 --> 00:53:43,400
moments mm-hmm

1454
00:53:50,259 --> 00:53:47,180
how could I differentiate that sound

1455
00:53:53,259 --> 00:53:50,269
from leprechauns pitter pattering down

1456
00:53:55,599 --> 00:53:53,269
the hallway or a secret Chinese program

1457
00:53:58,180 --> 00:53:55,609
that's designed to trick impressionable

1458
00:54:01,269 --> 00:53:58,190
college students on university campuses

1459
00:54:02,739 --> 00:54:01,279
or something yeah so when you start

1460
00:54:04,329 --> 00:54:02,749
talking about methodology or

1461
00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:04,339
epistemology that's usually when the

1462
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:07,640
brick the brakes lock up on the train

1463
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:09,410
that's barreling down the highway you

1464
00:54:12,910 --> 00:54:10,640
know that the trains don't go down

1465
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:12,920
highways but that's usually where people

1466
00:54:16,900 --> 00:54:14,930
pause and think about things a little

1467
00:54:19,660 --> 00:54:16,910
bit better how can actually be so sure

1468
00:54:21,279 --> 00:54:19,670
that that is a good reason and I am I

1469
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:21,289
being consistent that's another thing

1470
00:54:27,309 --> 00:54:25,910
too we got into a discussion about what

1471
00:54:30,069 --> 00:54:27,319
it would take to change her mind that it

1472
00:54:33,009 --> 00:54:30,079
wasn't spirits and she set this really

1473
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:33,019
high bar for disproving it and then we

1474
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:34,249
compared it to the bar that she was

1475
00:54:38,349 --> 00:54:36,650
setting for accepting it and then we

1476
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:38,359
talked about the gap and she realized

1477
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:39,650
that she was having a double standard

1478
00:54:44,109 --> 00:54:41,930
there too that's that's so much more

1479
00:54:45,969 --> 00:54:44,119
effective than just saying listen we've

1480
00:54:47,799 --> 00:54:45,979
done brain scans on bodies and when

1481
00:54:50,469 --> 00:54:47,809
people die that's it you know you're

1482
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:50,479
worm food or something yeah that's not

1483
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:52,130
going to help that person take another

1484
00:54:55,449 --> 00:54:54,140
look at their views and it's it's it's

1485
00:54:57,789 --> 00:54:55,459
so counterproductive to do it that way

1486
00:54:59,559 --> 00:54:57,799
it seems yeah and I think better the the

1487
00:55:01,749 --> 00:54:59,569
discussions I've had with conspiracy

1488
00:55:04,089 --> 00:55:01,759
theorists and a lot of the time like you

1489
00:55:06,670 --> 00:55:04,099
know I am just trying to giving them the

1490
00:55:08,289 --> 00:55:06,680
the facts of the matter like you know

1491
00:55:09,789 --> 00:55:08,299
explaining like this this trail that our

1492
00:55:13,150 --> 00:55:09,799
plane leaves behind it's actually a

1493
00:55:14,949 --> 00:55:13,160
contra and it's due to condensation of

1494
00:55:17,709 --> 00:55:14,959
like sometimes getting the science and

1495
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:17,719
get some references but you know looking

1496
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:19,690
back to it I can have wished that I

1497
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:22,480
have been asking them about why they

1498
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:24,880
believe what they believe I think that

1499
00:55:27,690 --> 00:55:26,319
would have been in the conversation

1500
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:27,700
would have been a lot more productive

1501
00:55:31,859 --> 00:55:30,010
because they already believe that this

1502
00:55:34,380 --> 00:55:31,869
things if you've me telling them

1503
00:55:35,339 --> 00:55:34,390
something else doesn't change that that

1504
00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:35,349
they're convinced that's something

1505
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:37,660
nefarious so a couple of approaches I

1506
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:39,970
could suggest is to say how did you

1507
00:55:45,809 --> 00:55:42,010
conclude or why do you actually think

1508
00:55:47,309 --> 00:55:45,819
that these are poisonous what is it gas

1509
00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:47,319
is coming out of our planet maybe some

1510
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:49,359
sometimes girls think that changing the

1511
00:55:53,220 --> 00:55:50,890
weather by spraying things in the a

1512
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:53,230
secret later okay so why do you think

1513
00:55:56,190 --> 00:55:54,490
that that's that why do you think that

1514
00:55:58,680 --> 00:55:56,200
that's true what's your main reason why

1515
00:56:00,480 --> 00:55:58,690
you think that and they might give a

1516
00:56:02,819 --> 00:56:00,490
reason double check to make sure that it

1517
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:02,829
is the reason if we work together to

1518
00:56:07,740 --> 00:56:04,480
figure out if that was a good reason and

1519
00:56:09,809 --> 00:56:07,750
we both agreed that it wasn't to your

1520
00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:09,819
satisfaction would you still be just as

1521
00:56:16,710 --> 00:56:13,380
confident in the claim they might say no

1522
00:56:19,290 --> 00:56:16,720
they might say yes so you really have to

1523
00:56:22,020 --> 00:56:19,300
kind of probe that another the second

1524
00:56:23,490 --> 00:56:22,030
tip I wanted to mention is ask them what

1525
00:56:25,290 --> 00:56:23,500
evidence would change their mind so

1526
00:56:26,970 --> 00:56:25,300
rather than just constantly giving

1527
00:56:28,829 --> 00:56:26,980
people things that you're gonna that you

1528
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:28,839
found convincing or you think they will

1529
00:56:34,980 --> 00:56:32,530
find convincing ask them and hopefully

1530
00:56:37,020 --> 00:56:34,990
they give something reasonable if they

1531
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:37,030
don't then you can discuss the gap in

1532
00:56:40,740 --> 00:56:39,040
the previous example but if they're

1533
00:56:42,390 --> 00:56:40,750
giving something reasonable and they

1534
00:56:44,010 --> 00:56:42,400
confirm to you that that's indeed what

1535
00:56:45,780 --> 00:56:44,020
would accept what they would accept to

1536
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:45,790
lower their confidence then you can work

1537
00:56:49,319 --> 00:56:47,770
with them to give them that but what I

1538
00:56:52,380 --> 00:56:49,329
think you're gonna find is especially

1539
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:52,390
people who are they're conspiratorial

1540
00:56:59,220 --> 00:56:54,010
minded and they think they have evidence

1541
00:57:00,599 --> 00:56:59,230
they seem to be really bad at figuring

1542
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:00,609
out what evidence would change their

1543
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:05,650
mind yeah that's where your focus I

1544
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:06,790
think you I think you get a lot more

1545
00:57:13,140 --> 00:57:08,290
traction if you approached it that way

1546
00:57:14,550 --> 00:57:13,150
yeah that I I am actually gonna have to

1547
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:14,560
wrap yourself early because my wife just

1548
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:16,240
texted me and she's got a flat tire and

1549
00:57:21,329 --> 00:57:17,170
she needs me to help her

1550
00:57:23,069 --> 00:57:21,339
oh no ok that's right so how sure are

1551
00:57:25,500 --> 00:57:23,079
you that she actually has a flat she

1552
00:57:28,020 --> 00:57:25,510
sent me a photograph of it you have a

1553
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:28,030
photograph yes okay I have evidence is

1554
00:57:31,099 --> 00:57:29,200
the confidence a little bit more that

1555
00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:31,109
she needs to see some help but yeah I

1556
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:33,220
came because I

1557
00:57:38,769 --> 00:57:36,890
we were going through step 7 and step 8

1558
00:57:42,220 --> 00:57:38,779
but step 8 less than summarize question

1559
00:57:43,779 --> 00:57:42,230
watch and repeat which I think you know

1560
00:57:45,339 --> 00:57:43,789
it's basically just continuing the

1561
00:57:49,390 --> 00:57:45,349
conversation am I talking to them and

1562
00:57:51,519 --> 00:57:49,400
doing that over and over again yeah yeah

1563
00:57:53,049 --> 00:57:51,529
and maybe even direct them to resources

1564
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:53,059
where they can learn this approach and

1565
00:57:58,420 --> 00:57:55,130
start doing it on their own views and

1566
00:58:00,430 --> 00:57:58,430
and trying not to overwhelm the person

1567
00:58:02,380 --> 00:58:00,440
to try it you noticing what's happening

1568
00:58:03,609 --> 00:58:02,390
during the conversation to see you know

1569
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:03,619
I think my questions are really

1570
00:58:06,759 --> 00:58:04,730
overwhelming them I think this might be

1571
00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:06,769
a good time to end it let's just wrap it

1572
00:58:11,140 --> 00:58:08,720
up and maybe pick it up next week yeah

1573
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:11,150
no I I yeah I just want to thank you

1574
00:58:15,130 --> 00:58:12,890
thank you for doing this and sorry man

1575
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:15,140
sit could it our shores but I I

1576
00:58:19,150 --> 00:58:17,630
understand we don't we did an hour which

1577
00:58:21,339 --> 00:58:19,160
is what I normally do it's a fascinating

1578
00:58:23,170 --> 00:58:21,349
conversation and I think I could easily

1579
00:58:25,210 --> 00:58:23,180
do another hour so if you Europe for

1580
00:58:27,009 --> 00:58:25,220
doing another talk sometime I would like

1581
00:58:29,009 --> 00:58:27,019
salutely and we delve and a little bit

1582
00:58:31,269 --> 00:58:29,019
more about the conspiracy theory

1583
00:58:33,370 --> 00:58:31,279
crossover and the other aspects like

1584
00:58:34,690 --> 00:58:33,380
politics and things like that I think

1585
00:58:36,370 --> 00:58:34,700
that'd be fun maybe we can see what the

1586
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:36,380
reaction is to this episode and then if

1587
00:58:39,970 --> 00:58:38,000
there's if there's a demand maybe we do

1588
00:58:42,009 --> 00:58:39,980
something okay great all right well

1589
00:58:44,620 --> 00:58:42,019
thank you very much thank you for having

1590
00:58:47,170 --> 00:58:44,630
me on okay how often now got off to

1591
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:47,180
rescue my wife okay sounds good all

1592
00:58:48,940 --> 00:58:47,930
right okay